Before Chemicals: 'Bleach Packers' and the Birth of the Chemical Industry

SPEAKER_04 0:00 This is a bleachpacker, one of the worst jobs of the 19th century, but one that people were desperate to do.

SPEAKER_01 0:07 It's obviously quite dramatic seeing a worker wearing a muzzle. The job was so hard, it wasn't unusual for them to drink 10 pints a day.

SPEAKER_04 0:15 When the chemical industry first started, it changed the world. And here in Widness in the UK is where the revolution began. I'm at Catalyst, a museum that celebrates the birthplace of the chemical industry. To find out how chemicals became such an important part of modern life. This exhibit is about to undergo a major rework. So this is a last look at it in its current form. And today I'm joined by Judith Wilde, Heritage Manager at the museum. So, Judith, it is fantastic to be here with you today at the Catalyst Museum. And why is Catalyst Museum such an important place when it comes to the birthplace of the chemical industry?

SPEAKER_01 0:58 Well, you've just said it really, it's the birthplace of the chemical industry. There was a point where heavy chemicals were needed, alkali. In everyday use, there was becoming a huge demand. And musprats were trying to make some chemicals in Liverpool, and they were told, no, we don't want the smell, we don't want the mess. Get yourselves down the Mersey towards Widness. There's nothing there, you can't offend anybody. So this area that we're in would have just been farmland, open space, and then it's ended up obviously being very, very crowded in with chemical firms over the years, and then this is where most chemicals processes were developed, and lots of chemical firms in the area.

SPEAKER_04 1:38 And I think the history of chemicals starts uh a lot earlier in human history than perhaps we realise, and that's why we're standing here in front of this the first part of the exhibit, which is uh titled The Beginnings, and it really charts how we were using chemicals, you know, as far back as ancient Egypt. Um, so how were chemicals a part of daily life even then?

SPEAKER_01 2:02 Well, obviously they were using animal fats and anything they could get hands on. Salt is very important, salt is still very important in all our chemicals, and this area is rich in salt. I mean, which is another reason why it's important round here. So, yes, salt was very important. They the Romans had realized how important it was in cooking and uh and cleaning and everything they were doing, so they were ahead of their times in the uses of salt.

SPEAKER_04 2:28 And also um in ancient China as well, here it describes how um the explosive properties of mixtures of salt peter were were used, um, and they actually were making fireworks back in ancient China.

SPEAKER_01 2:40 Yes, that's right. They were they were using it obviously to create fire, too, which then would have meant that they could have uh glazed their pottery. Obviously, then gunpowder, etc., has always been in use in the chemical industry and mining, uh you know, w blasting uh rock and um limestone uh for the processes.

SPEAKER_04 3:01 But it's not really the ancient beginnings that are what catalyst is known for. Um actually this man John Hutchinson, he's really sort of the the beginnings of why Widness becomes an important location for the chemical industry. Can you tell me a little bit about Hutchinson?

SPEAKER_01 3:18 Yes, John Hutchinson in his short life, he he only lived till he was 40, did uh an enormous amount of of work and he established his first number one works here uh in Widness on Spike Island, and um he was using the LeBlanc process which was very dense in a chemical waste and it was very polluting.

SPEAKER_04 3:40 So just to remind us what the LeBlanc process is?

SPEAKER_01 3:43 So it is a way of producing alkali using sulfuric acid and salt cake to to sort of make a chemical reaction that gives you the powder, which they call bleach really. Um and there was various different ways of doing that. It was if you worked in that environment, it was the worst job on the factory. So in the 1840s and 50s, when he was establishing his works, by 1851 he was he was employing a hundred men, um, which if you think he only built his works in 47 was was a huge undertaking. But also by then, where this area was was just all farmland, it was then um houses were being put up at a rate of knots because there was such demand. So then the the process as was for every ton of the um alkali that was made, you'd have almost two tons of chemical waste, which at the time it was just thought okay to just put over there. And just dump in the nearest and then it it it eventually would perhaps grass over and not look terrible, but actually it's not a stable item. So for instance, one of the first things that happens when you get your immigration from different parts of the country or the world where people want to settle and come where the work is, first thing they want is a church. And in the instance here, um they built very hurriedly built a uh St. Mary's Church down the road, and it was established long enough that there was graves, etc. But actually, because it was built on the chemical waste Galago, uh it was it sank into the ground and then had to be replaced by a bigger one down the road.

SPEAKER_04 5:20 So Galago is the name of the waste that is produced.

SPEAKER_01 5:25 And as far as St. Helens and places like that uh where they would have um had similar factories, this area is perhaps uh rich in something that we don't want, which is the the chemical waste. Um and it it takes quite a lot of reclamation in actual to turn that uh land into you know even decent brownfield.

SPEAKER_04 5:45 So is the Galagoo still sitting in the earth all around us now?

SPEAKER_01 5:50 Yes, it is, yes, in in lots of places, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:52 Will it naturally disappear over or does it need human intervention to get rid of it?

SPEAKER_01 5:58 It needs human intervention, probably, yes, yes. But that's why you see lots of the green space now. There's obviously there's been a lot of remediation work done and that's provided with a lot of green space where there would just have been factory after factory after factory so close together.

SPEAKER_04 6:13 And so this church sank into the ground. Did it sink all the way? Did it get dismantled before it had a chance?

SPEAKER_01 6:19 Probably got dismantled at the point, because we are talking about a long time ago now, but um in actual fact they've not developed that land um because the the the graves are still are still there, so um it's just a nice patch of grass now.

SPEAKER_04 6:32 So there's still people buried somewhere deep now, below the ground, not six foot under, but perhaps a little bit a bit more than that. And so actually, originally it was intended that the chemical industry would um begin in Liverpool, but it kind of got pushed down the road.

SPEAKER_01 6:48 Yes, James Muspratt um started his uh uh his works in Vauxhall Road in Liverpool in 1823, and he wasn't popular. It was a case of we don't want this in our area, please uh move away, and which is why Widness was chosen, because it's still adjacent to the River Mersey, and it was an untapped area really where they could do what they needed to do. The water is extremely important to any chemical process. So drawing the water out of the river or or whatever it is is very important, but actually, obviously, then for your transportation. So, in the case of here, we've got the River Mersey, which is all round this area of West Bank. What you've also got is where Spike Island is, you've got the um St. Helens and Sankey Canal, which is the oldest navigable canal, and that would bring coal and raw materials from St. Helens, but they would come laden with that for the process, and then they would go back with sugar loaded from the Mersey to um a sugar works near St. Helens. So transportation then by water and in the end rail uh was very important to this area, and this is obviously before the uh Manchester Ship Canal was was built as well, which then became a a huge um prop you know, big ships were coming down that so uh in terms of loading. So there was plenty of docks, plenty of that type of activity in Runcorn and Widness for for these raw materials and finished products.

SPEAKER_04 8:21 And if you look outside today, as you mentioned, there's lots of lovely grassy patches. Um but if you look at the image below here, you can see that it was very industrial and there was heavy smoke in the air. It would have been quite an unpleasant place to live.

SPEAKER_01 8:38 Yes, yes, it would have been an unpleasant place to live. And that is a typical image of of what it looked like, so many chimneys just polluting the air, and and that's what Widness became known for in the end, was the pollution and the smell.

SPEAKER_04 8:53 Do we get a sense of what residents felt like in the area? Did it have an an effect on their health at all?

SPEAKER_01 8:59 Uh well, I'm I'm not sure I can answer that really, but um it wouldn't have been a pleasant place to live, but then no area where this heavy chemical industry or a heavy industry of any sort really would would have been particularly pleasant to live in, and not quite like the countryside perhaps, but um everybody accepted that really as well this is where our work is, and there is no other way to make money than to go out to work. So they took the the roof with the smooth as far as that's concerned, you know.

SPEAKER_04 9:27 So well, that brings us on quite neatly to the bleach packers. I would love to go and see. You've got an incredible uh model of a bleach packer. So let's go and have a look at that. So this guy right here is a bleach packer. So I and and this story is incredible. So could you tell me about the bleach packers?

SPEAKER_01 9:44 Yes, the bleach packer would have been the worst job on the um factory. So as you can see here, this was an early bleach packer and it's very primitive. So the raw materials will have been um put in in what you would call perhaps a silo and then water sprinkled on, left overnight, and then when you came back the next day, there would be a powder on the floor, and this is what he's doing here is demonstrating what it's like to shovel powder up off the floor and put into the barrel. But you notice he's got these bandages on. He would have had to have provided his own PPE, which is what this is, so it would be bandages, any cloth that he could find, because any part of your skin that is exposed, um, if that gets wet, it's it's obviously will burn you. And this in particular here is is obviously quite dramatic seeing seeing a worker wearing a muzzle, and that is because he would have needed to have breathed in through his mouth and out of his nose rather than the other way round, otherwise he would have been overcome by the gases that were present. So what he would have needed to have done would be to um say in 15 to 20 minute shifts he would he would do this and then have to go outside because um hi there's only a certain amount of time that you will be able to stand it. So if you were overcome, plenty of men were carried out when they were overcome. It it wouldn't kill you, it was not great, but it's if you breathed in the other way, then you would immediately be overcome by the fumes.

SPEAKER_04 11:14 And what would happen? You just pass out?

SPEAKER_01 11:15 You would just pass out, yes. Yes. So it but it was well known. It it was what it was it was part of the job. They they completely accepted that those were the conditions.

SPEAKER_04 11:25 And so when you say if they were to get wet, they would burn. That could even just be a a light sweat would would burn their skin.

SPEAKER_01 11:31 Yes, that's uh that that's right, and it would be unpleasant, it would hurt. So that's why they tried to cover up as much of their bodies as they possibly could uh to prevent that. But it it was it was very unpleasant.

SPEAKER_03 11:42 I remember the bleach chambers, these were huge chambers with wooden sides like sleepers on them, you know. And the chaps actually got into these chambers to turn the bleach over by hand.

SPEAKER_04 11:55 It looks like a very uncomfortable job, and so they were shoveling it up so that it could later be be shipped. And you say it was the best paid job because it was so unpleasant, but as a result, people were kind of clamoured to do it.

SPEAKER_01 12:09 Yes, there was always there was never any shortage of people who would do this work because it was well paid, they could feed their families, they and they accepted that that was part of life, that with that that heavy labour and hard work was part of life, so they worked hard and played hard. So a shift would end at um and we've got an oral history that that says of a man that came out of shift in the 1950s and would immediately go across the road to um the pub and order six pints of beer, and only when he drank the six pints of beer could his drinking start, and uh obviously by three o'clock they they're having trouble getting rid of him when the the the licences laws meant that he had to close at three o'clock.

SPEAKER_02 12:51 And these bleachbackers, my God. There's one man, he died in this home over here only two years ago. He was 96 when he died all coming off, and he was a bleach cracker. I've seen that man and walking at the waver auto off ship, and they all always order six pints. Six pints of beer.

SPEAKER_01 13:08 But that was it wasn't unusual for them to to drink ten pints a day, and it was said to be that the job was so hard. Certainly you they needed the moisture, they needed the refreshment because of the however many hours they'd spent doing this really difficult job. The alkali inspectors came in at some point to look at um how uh people were treated, what the working conditions were like, and also what the atmosphere and pollution was like. So they had an alkali inspector's report, but actually it was found that when the report was done and the men were interviewed, they never complained once about the conditions, which I guess shows you the how things were then really.

SPEAKER_04 13:48 The money was good enough. Well, they spent all the extra money they got on beer by the sounds of it.

SPEAKER_01 13:52 It would have been cheap then anyway.

SPEAKER_04 13:54 So actually um this kind of comes to this point that I wanted to raise was whether as the chemical industry started up, you can imagine that all these factories going up, all this smog in the air, that people would be upset by that. But actually it sounds like as you mentioned, it it's it's what they had to make a living, and and in fact they probably welcomed it in many ways.

SPEAKER_01 14:17 Yes, well they welcomed the work. So we're we're highlighting really the the work that we think is like the worst and most extreme. But obviously, with that and the development of the chemical industry would also come the other trades that went with it. So if you were building new factories, you would need bricklayers, you would need uh join us, you would need all plumbers, you would need all those trades, and all those trades then would would locally be supporting these factories. So there was it was there was a heavy industrial area for people to find work, and everybody found work here. There was no, you know, very little shortage of of employment densely in this area.

SPEAKER_04 14:55 Would uh the locals have known the bleach packers by eye once they'd um come out of working and they they'd gotten uh they'd taken off all of their rags and their muzzle, um would it be would it have been noticeable perhaps by uh burn marks on their on their faces or or maybe a a smell, I don't know?

SPEAKER_01 15:14 Yes, I I guess so. Um as as the process became more sophisticated and and uh and improved, um they would have actually gone into work, taken their out their their h home clothes off, if you like, they would wear paper clothing and not much else, because by by then they're not actually as as exposed to it. But nevertheless, when it it was a case of when we've done oral histories and we've talked to people, they always knew the bleach packers, they always knew who they were. Oh, he was a bleach packers, as though it almost was set oh he he did it was a bleachpacker, he was this. So you were kind of known for it, I think, more than just any other process worker. It was a kind of a maybe not for the right reasons, a status thing as well, you know.

SPEAKER_04 15:59 So when did um people stop being bleach packers?

SPEAKER_01 16:03 Uh well there was a process really that was still going into the fifties and sixties over at Kasna Kelner, but but by then it's automated and there's there's there's a different way of making it than than this very primitive way.

SPEAKER_04 16:15 So I'm just wondering whether are there any bleach packers still left alive today who could tell the story of what it was like, but maybe not.

SPEAKER_01 16:22 Maybe not in in those terms, yes, which is why it's good that we've got some oral good oral histories because um we started as a museum 40 years ago, and because we took those then, you are able in living memory at the time to get to get that information, which is why that type of thing is important.

SPEAKER_04 16:38 Well, you certainly won't catch me um getting one of those outfits on and doing a job like that. But can you tell me about some more of the um other important figures in the chemical industry uh from this from this region, from this area?

SPEAKER_01 16:53 Uh yes, so certainly what they decided was that there needed to be a process that was cleaner, more efficient in order to make the alkali which was becoming more and more in demand. So they started to think about using the Solvay process under licence. So Ernest Solvay discovered a a better way of making alkali. And Brunner and Mond, so John Brunner and Ludwig Mond actually met when they worked for the firm of John Hutchinson in our building here in the 1860s, and Ludwig Mond was trying very hard to find a process using sulfur recovery, and ended up uh they did actually choose the solve process under licence to make the um alkali. But because um Hutchinsons didn't want to um use that process, they wanted to stick with the the LeBlanc, what they'd already um been using all the time, um Ludwig Mond and John Brunnett went over to Northwich uh to Winnington and actually made it there. So they became the firm of Brunner Monde, and in actual fact that was a it was a much better way, and there was less waste using that process, and actually that that is the process they still use now worldwide if you are making soda ash, and we're we're incredible, we're incredibly successful in that, and and then of course Brunermond, together with United Alkali, British Dye Stuffs and Nobel Industries, became ICI. Um but the United Alkali part of that were all the local chemical firms, including what was left of Hutchinson's by that point, all got together. Really, they were trying to take on Brunner Monde because they were becoming so successful with their processes. So what they did, they had other smaller chemical firms. There were actually all over the country, but actually a lot of them were here and round St. Helens, mostly in the in the northwest. And they would be making a variety of products, but they got together to try and be stronger to take on the competition. But really, the days were numbered for the the old Leblanc process, really.

SPEAKER_04 19:58 And so the um the waste material that was produced through this method um wasn't so damaging to the environment and actually was useful in some ways.

SPEAKER_01 20:07 Yes, it could it could be useful. It was it's m more of a calcium chloride that um is produced as a chemical waste which you can actually use in in some of it in in other processes and it has been has been used over time. It's it's quite hard to use it because it's not an easy easy thing to transport because it's suspended in water. So it's obviously not something you'd make a lot of money out of. But ICI um in in the 70s and 80s were um thinking of it in terms of just dumping it as regards as what what can we do? And even if they broke even on it, it was better than actually just putting it into lime beds and and and um dumping dispose in in that way.

SPEAKER_04 20:50 And what kinds of things would you use the calcium chloride for?

SPEAKER_01 20:54 It actually has quite a uh a few good properties really. They can use it for um gritting the roads. In actual fact, you don't have to use rock salt. It's um been used in the oil drilling in in Scotland. I can remember being a a a a good customer of ours, but it it was a hard thing to to um uh to take by ship because you were taking mostly water and having to process it once it got there. But yeah, certainly in the nineties, if you opened a tin of pal for your dog, it that bit on the top would have been the calcium chloride.

SPEAKER_04 21:26 The the jelly on top of the dog food. Yeah, so it was it was edible. It was in the Well for dogs.

SPEAKER_01 21:33 Yeah, yes, that's right. Lovely.

SPEAKER_04 21:36 Well, let's keep on going through uh to the next part of the exhibit. And so now we're going to uh take a look at the soap industry, which became quite important in the 19th century, didn't it? Um and so obviously chemicals used to produce soaps and uh soap advertisers being known um for being particularly good at marketing their products. So just tell me a little bit about um the soap industry and as it starts to burgeon here around uh Woodness.

SPEAKER_01 22:04 Well, almost at the same time as Hutchinson was making his alkali, William Gossage had come up to use the area in exactly the same way, but to make soap. So Gossage's were uh ended up being a really, really um important firm in in soap making and were the world leaders at one point. But they were very good at their marketing and and so forth. So it would be round about the first time people could save up their packets of the soap and get um all sorts of things, which some of our displays are showing some nice crockery you could have got with with tokens and stuff and little coupons that you cut out and you'd keep a hold of them, yeah. Yeah, so you could buy you needed so many to buy various things, but there was also wooden chairs and um a small step ladder. There was quite a good catalogue of of items that you could have bought.

SPEAKER_04 22:56 Yeah, I can see the step ladder just above me, and I mean quite lovely. Crockery, actually, yeah, you couldn't imagine buying something quite so nice with coupons these days, usually it's plastic tat.

SPEAKER_01 23:07 Yes, exactly. And that would be very desirable, you see, and you would try and collect the whole set and everything. So that that would be something to aspire to. But also, they were using processes that um were innovative as well. So in the case of the um blue mottled soap, that was the first of its kind, and the blue mottling. I mean, it does look a bit like um cheese.

SPEAKER_04 23:30 Blue cheese, yeah. It looks partly edible, also I'm not sure I would put my mouth.

SPEAKER_01 23:36 Nevertheless, they were starting to develop soap that was to be used um for your skin. At one time you had a bar of soap and it would do your laundry, your floor, and yourself. So this is a a departure into making a soap that was actually for washing yourself.

SPEAKER_04 23:52 Also, I always think of soap being uh primarily to wash a human body, but not the other way around.

SPEAKER_01 23:59 Yes, yes, and and you happen to clean yourself with something that would you'd be doing floor with. So it was it was moving into something that was a lot more um, you know, then there would fragrances would appear in the soaps and everything, all which was developed in in this area as well. There were there was a big firm that did that in the area that made all the fragrances, and so all the um trades worked together, um, which is why Gossages were so successful, because they had access to raw materials, they had land to build their factories on, and they they were incredibly good uh good employer. They were very keen on um taking youths who they would train in commercial roles and they had to go to night school and yeah, and that was part of the deal, and you know, they were very keen on education and um sort of after after work activities of sport and things like that, which is on the same lines as I of what ICI Brunner and Mond did in the end, if they they would get more and better things out of their workers if that if they um treated them well, you know, and provided for them. And the idea was not to for them to in the case of the bleachpacker is to leave work and go straight into the pub and perhaps spend all the money, but that it was more of a it was a different way of working where your work became really your life, but not in a terrible way. It just meant that you were getting all your sports and recreation uh into the deal as well. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:25 Um it's quite forward thinking of them to think that way so long ago. Um I love with the um with the soaps and the fragrances sort of emerging from this area that you you could almost imagine that the the the soap smell that we're so used to today really originates here. Um that really classic smell of soap. But uh obviously soaps can smell all sorts of different aromas, but and I'm imagining if I pick this one up, it will smell like blue cheese. Um just because of the it doesn't let yeah. I mean it's not that powerful now, but I imagine when it was first produced the smell would have been more powerful. Why the blue model? Was it just an attempt to make it look it's a gimmick, basically?

SPEAKER_01 26:07 Right. That they were they were good at their advertising, so they anything they thought they would get housewives, because that's who it's aimed at, ever ever you know, to buy their soap, then that's what they would do. And if you look at the two examples of the soap we've got here, which one would you think was the more attractive? You you know, that's the more traditional sort of um you know, block of soap which is a funny colour, and it wouldn't have looked much different when it was new either, it wouldn't have been that attractive. But obviously now if you if you invent something more uh attractive, people will think it is better than the previous version.

SPEAKER_04 26:41 So yeah, and so this one, um the more brown coloured soap that we're looking at here, it actually has their name stamped on it, and so this would have been more of a classic soap they sold.

SPEAKER_01 26:52 Yes, yes, that would have been more the traditional soap that you would have found in most soap works. It would it would have looked like that because that was the colour it it was before you dyed it and you did anything to it to make the the colour different.

SPEAKER_04 27:05 And uh as I understand it, um I I don't know if um they advertise their soaps in this way, but some soap manufacturers started leaning into this idea that um you need to be clean and you you you know you should be using soap, otherwise you you might not get married or find a partner. Um was that part of their advertising campaign, or did they largely rely on this sort of coupon collecting system?

SPEAKER_01 27:28 It was a mixture of both, really. Any angle that they could go after, they would. And uh I'm not they had a huge marketing um and commercial team, which you know they would take samples round to to shops and to to different places to try and to try and get their product in and the thing that was on the counter. So that is what they would be looking at is almost in a way um shaming the person if they weren't using their um product because the inferior product that they thought they would be using if they bought it from someone else might main they they weren't as clean and hygienic and their laundry results wouldn't be nice and white, you know, and and stuff like that. So they would they would be using any tactic they could.

SPEAKER_04 28:13 And so soaps obviously before now uh would have been used, uh would have been created by hand, it would have been a a much slower process, maybe using things like animal fats. Um so this obviously made it possible to produce a lot of soap. Did it make it cleaner soap? Was it was it true what their marketing was saying that it was actually a better sort of quality product?

SPEAKER_01 28:36 I think probably it was, because I think the process was quite clean in the factories because it had to be, because otherwise your soap would be contaminated. So if you think about um the the factory itself, parts of the factory, um that where this was made was called the soapery, which is rather charming. But actually, you you would have uh you'd have a machine that would stamp that name in, but actually an operator stamping using using the press to make all and it would be all packed, there would be a carton department, there would be very labour intensive and lots of people working on that process. But uh there would be the soap pans and the boilers, and then eventually the whole thing process would would have lots of people working in that role. But actually, when you start getting to the blocks of soap and it's going into the packaging, it's actually quite a clean environment, and they would have have had um proper smocks and overalls to mean that they weren't contaminating the the soap themselves by the process not being clean.

SPEAKER_04 29:36 It's really interesting, isn't it? Because um right now with people feeling chemicals are everywhere, we need to stop using chemicals. Uh a lot of people are moving back to try to find natural alternatives to the variety of chemical products that we use, which is understandable because as we're discovering today, chemicals are everywhere and really built into the fabric of the modern world. Um, but even with soaps, you're seeing people move back to this traditional handcrafted method of making soaps, aren't you?

SPEAKER_01 30:07 Yes, you you are seeing more uh handmade soaps now, which is I think probably down to people thinking that chemicals are bad, even though we need them in order to kill all the germs. Um, you know, people looking for uh ways of making um soap that if they uh make handmade soaps, they know what's gone into it. And um, yeah, that's that's really they're they're reinventing the wheel, but hopefully in a in a in a positive way, yes.

SPEAKER_04 30:32 Yeah, so we kind of come full circle, handmade to this chemical process back to handmade, and eventually I'm sure we'll make it back around again. So let's move on to the next section of the exhibit. And here I really want to have a look at this fascinating cabinet um full of uh sulfur, sodium chloride, zinc, all sorts of um other materials. So t just tell me um, well, first of all, the the desk that all of this is on is quite an important desk itself, but tell me a little bit about this cabinet here.

SPEAKER_01 31:04 Yes, this cabinet would um have been in an analytical laboratory, various testing would have been done. So you've got your product testing, so each day um certain parts of the um the process would be tested. They would be looking for certain levels that needed to be consistent and the same all the time. If there was too high a level of of ammonia or or whatever, then something was wrong with the process, and then down the line that would have to be put right. So testing was very important in order to make sure you got your finished product, was exactly what you thought it was going to be, and you hadn't got a load of wasted product. But obviously, you would also be looking at um developing new chemicals and developing new techniques, and in particular, this bench here was out of the um Winnington Research Laboratory in Northwich, um, which was the place that polythene was invented in 1933 by accident.

SPEAKER_04 31:59 It was invented by accident, was it?

SPEAKER_01 32:01 Yes, yes. Um they left something overnight that I don't think they'd intended to invent polythene, but they did left something overnight that they were working on and came back the next day to find this, what they described as a waxy substance, and then realised that that had various properties that you know we absolutely can't live without. So it was groundbreaking, really, what the the research that's that's taken place in a a laboratory such as this.

SPEAKER_04 32:27 So this could have been the desk where polythene.

SPEAKER_01 32:29 It could have been Gibson's desk where he invented the polythene, yes, it could.

SPEAKER_04 32:33 Oh wow, okay. I love just seeing all of this old school apparatus. It just it it just looks um well, it really gives you that vibe of an of an old school chemical experiment, doesn't it? It you know, it really speaks to that. Like modern um ones don't quite give you that same feeling.

SPEAKER_01 32:52 Yes, that's right. And this would have been it would have looked like this, right down to the books that they might needed to have just looked something up with. It would have been a working environment, hopefully a tidy one, but um but yeah, all these this is very authentic.

SPEAKER_04 33:07 And Judith, I really want to have a look at this um dress here, this beautiful purple dress, because it's got quite an interesting backstory as well, hasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 33:16 Yes, this would be have been very unusual in its time because only Queen Victoria could possibly have anything made of purple fabric. So um die um chemicals used in dyes, in dyeing fabrics is is incredibly important. So in in terms of if you were to produce something like that before the synthetic dyes were made, you would have had to have crushed a lot of beetles uh to make the cochroneal that would would have um dyed that dress.

SPEAKER_04 33:43 I wonder how many beetles it would take.

SPEAKER_01 33:46 So th really when Perkin invented this purple, which again he did by accident, I don't really know the circumstances of that, but it was said to that he'd hadn't intended to make a colour of that nature, it became very successful and then everyone wanted purple, and and of course we take fabric dyes um for granted now. We can have any colour of fabric we wanted, but you only had what what you had at the time, which would be a fabric that was bleached or dyed with vegetable um vegetable dyes.

SPEAKER_04 34:13 So actually the invention of purple is also what cascades down to the invention of being able to create any colour.

SPEAKER_01 34:20 Yes, that's right, yes. And then so then British dye stuffs who did end up being ICI just then worked on various dyes and pigments in from a variety of different ways, but chlorine and salt, etc., is essential in dye in dyeing material. So that's where again we're having the same chemicals that we keep talking about and and raw materials that um are essential to, as we say, in everyday life.

SPEAKER_04 34:48 And and all from happening here around this area.

SPEAKER_01 34:51 Yes, yes, yes. So so British dye stuffs were actually in Blackley in Manchester, but as I say, came part of the the ICI conglomerate. So um every every division fed each other with different um raw materials uh that was needed for all the processes within within the group.

SPEAKER_04 35:11 Now something fascinating that happened close to Witness is the development of halatane, which is an anaesthetic. So uh can you tell me a little bit about that? We're standing in front of a a cabinet with a halothane meter in it, and uh well, this is all quite interesting to me.

SPEAKER_01 35:26 Yes, it all looks very dramatic, doesn't it? Um so it was developed in Witness Research Laboratory, and it was Charles Suppling, Dr. Charles Suppling, who was the person who uh had the patent and developed it in 1951. And this would be a synthetic anesthetic which would be then would then revolutionize operating theatres and and was a much safer way of obviously putting people under while the operation took place. So um various different ways were tried, but this and obviously ether and chloroform were the ones that were used beforehand. But um this was a a new way of doing it, and it would be that fluorine would be made at our at the Rock Savage Works in in Runcorn, and then they developed uh they added bromine and water to it, and then eventually um it made this um anaesthetic. And then so by the 1950s it was being rolled out in hospitals, um, and there's lots of pictures of smiling people who had benefited from um obviously a successful operation, and it was basically life-saving, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:39 Yeah, because there's this image um just on one of the panels here of um somebody in Australia who smiling, as you mentioned, having made a good recovery after um undergoing one of Australia's first open heart operations, which is amazing. There's this image as well of frigairs, some of the early fridges, which show just how important were the sort of development of fridges in the 1900s were alongside the development of anesthetics because both, you know, one uh the fridges really helped it become portable and become possible to put these in hospitals. Um and so I would is it connected to Widness because of the because of its chemical industry past, or was it sort of just by chance that anaesthetics also come from here?

SPEAKER_01 37:29 Uh it was because of the um Widness Laboratory, which was a state-of-the-art best in the country, a laboratory where many discoveries and and much um research and development was done. And it was because ICI were prepared to uh spend a lot of time um researching lots of different processes, uh so many came out of Widness Laboratory, and obviously this this was one of them. The pharmaceuticals division would then have taken it over, but it was it was invented here in Widness.

SPEAKER_04 38:05 And that also leads us on to um antibiotics as well, because you know, synthetic medicines weren't really available for doctors um to prescribe in the 1930s, but that actually changes quite dramatically by 1937, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 38:23 It does, yes. And um the Second World War um gave plenty of opportunity for these medicines to be tried out because you would basically have people who perhaps weren't thought to live till morning and it was worth trying. So we can we can think how it would be nice to have a a proper rollout of how these things were um worked on and and but in in actual fact it it was saving people's lives, not just people who fought in the war, but people who were in hospitals needing some groundbreaking treatment and and whose lives were saved by by the penicillin.

SPEAKER_00 39:01 D-Day was approaching. Penicillin was of vital importance. It was essential to find out whether it could be used to treat battle casualties. In 1943, the War Office sent out a medical research team to North Africa. Army surgeons tried the new method suggested on wounded evacuated from Italy. The results were excellent. The War Office made plans for every casualty to receive penicillin treatment from the front line to the base hospital.

SPEAKER_04 39:28 Even uh Winston Churchill um in 1943 developed pneumonia and was saved by Mae and Baker's drug as well. So, yeah, clearly uh quite impactful uh as a um you know throughout history, really, uh bringing history to forward in a way that maybe we don't quite appreciate.

SPEAKER_01 39:47 Yes, and there's your marketing campaign right there, isn't it? If it was alright for Winston Churchill, maybe you know it was given that push as well in terms of research and development because they knew they were onto something and it had good pedigree.

SPEAKER_04 40:00 And so, Judith, um as we come to a close, we're standing at the beginning of the exhibit. This is sort of the way that you go round. Um but this is going to look very different soon because you've um been you've received a grant from the National Lottery and you're kind of giving Catalyst a makeover, aren't you?

SPEAKER_01 40:18 Well, yes, this is the Birth of an Industry Gallery, and it's been here for 30 years. It's um history in its own right, having been here so long. So thanks to the National Lottery, we are able to replace this and give people a different visitor experience. It will look very different. It's gonna be a shame to see it go, but it it's gonna be great to have something um new, more modern in the museum.

SPEAKER_04 40:43 So, what kind of thing can we expect? What what's gonna be modernised about it?

SPEAKER_01 40:48 Well, there'll there'll be the same kind of story told, but perhaps in a different way, that perhaps is act more accessible to people. You know, the way it in the 1990s in which they decided museums should look is very different to how we expect them to look now. Um, there's gonna be uh an element of if you've got a young family, they will also not be saying this is boring, can we not go to another floor? So uh that there will be lot peop things for every age and there will be more interactives and it will be more in keeping with the theme that we've got going through the whole museum, really.

SPEAKER_04 41:23 But still celebrating the chemical industry in Witness.

SPEAKER_01 41:27 We are the only museum of the chemical industry, and we want to keep that that way. So, yes, there will be much heritage still to be seen on this floor.

SPEAKER_04 41:36 What's what's happening to the uh the bleach packer? Uh I'm assuming he gets to stay, does he?

SPEAKER_01 41:42 Uh he doesn't get to stay and be on be on display. I fought for it. Uh there will be a represent representation of him, and um he will go back into store. So I'm hoping after being bent double for a number of years, he will actually stand up and take some less space. But there will be opportunities for it. He's very popular, and and other organisations have of they always think of that when they oh the beachblacker, the beachbacker. So there was even a suggestion he might go on a mini tour around the district, which is you know, we we'll keep getting him out and dusting him off because um he's been here so long, he's part of the staff.

SPEAKER_04 42:20 Well, Judith Wilde, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for joining me for what we did before.

SPEAKER_01 42:25 Thank you, Ali. It's been great.