The Bleach Packer: Your Questions Answered

SPEAKER_01 0:00 Bleachpackers were Victorian workers who risked their health to feed their family. This worker spent his days shoveling bleach powder in rooms so toxic he had to wrap himself head to toe in protective clothing. When I covered the bleach packers a few weeks ago, many of you had questions. Why didn't their eyes burn? Did the muzzle actually work? Why were some of them drinking 10 pints a day? And did this really continue into the 1950s? Well, Judith at Catalyst Museum has since sent me a collection of rare photographs that help answer those questions. I'm Ollie, and this is What We Did Before, the podcast that explores the history of everyday life. And I am pleased to say that Judith Wilde joins me again now for a QA all about the Bleach Packers. So, Judith, this story has really resonated with my audience. I I've pulled together some of the main questions that they they had, which I think are worth addressing that we just didn't get to during our first conversation. So welcome to uh what we did before again. Thanks, Sally. It's lovely to be back. So a few people asked, you know, what exactly this powder was that they were shoveling off the floor. Obviously, we call it bleach, they were the bleach packers. Uh, but viewers are are asking what specifically this was, what was this toxic powder that they were shoveling off the floor?

SPEAKER_00 1:24 Well, the early process, the LeBlanc process, they were trying to make soda ash, sodium carbonate, um, which which they still make today, which still goes into glass and and just about everything we use. So what you see is a is a powder that formed that they were able to put in barrels and um then ship out to whoever it was that wanted to use that in their manufacture.

SPEAKER_01 1:45 So when the Le Blanc process was making this powder, why was it just sort of on the floor needing to be shoveled up and put into barrels?

SPEAKER_00 1:53 Well, a lot of the time, um i it was it very early uh primitive methods were to just have it in a silo, wet it, leave it, and then come back to it when it has has formed um the powder. But also what you'd be getting was as they started to mechanise it, they would have rotating furnaces and drums and stuff, but the men still had to climb inside these things and sort of knock it out of the all the chambers that it was stuck in. So then obviously it would then end up on the floor and then had to be put into the barrels.

SPEAKER_01 2:24 So they were inside silos?

SPEAKER_00 2:26 Yes, inside the vessels themselves. They used to climb inside and and do the work, you know, the heavy work with the scraping and the shovels and everything, to loosen it and then to be able to scoop it up and put it into barrels.

SPEAKER_01 2:39 Yeah, I didn't realise I I knew the process of sort of dealing with toxic material was was bad enough, but actually in that sort of environment, w would there have been multiple bleach packers doing it at once?

SPEAKER_00 2:49 Yeah, there'd be more than one in the in the these vessels will be quite big, but yes, there would be more than one person and and as we said before, they would do it for probably 10 or 15 minutes. But it it would be such a such an awful job, in actual fact. It it actually did say in the works rules that the bleach packers were the only people who were allowed to go to the pub during working hours. It just shows you how how serious that was as a job, if if that concession could have been made for for them alone.

SPEAKER_01 3:21 So some viewers asked, um, if the bleachpackers wore rags, you know, these rags that you sort of said were makeshift PPE, because the chemical would burn you if it came into contact with moisture or even just a light sweat, why didn't it instantly burn their eyes, which are of course naturally wet?

SPEAKER_00 3:41 Well, I think really what our um model doesn't show is that perhaps he would have worn goggles, because the the evidence is that they did wear goggles. But as the the bandages and everything that they use were obviously very primitive, then so were the goggles, because there would be nothing issued by the company in terms of PPE at that time. So we've got evidence of people having used Coleman's mustard tins with the bottoms taken out, and they would have perhaps bought when I say bought the lenses, one one wonders where you could find a lens that would suit the bottom of a tin. But very much that with um some rope tied behind them would make some very primitive goggles.

SPEAKER_01 4:20 Okay, so and we've got images here of some eye protection that could have been used by the bleach packers, and so actually very little of their skin would have been exposed, even their eyes would have had to be covered up. What if, you know, there are certain parts of your face, especially from the images that we can see, that still were slightly exposed, maybe you know, the sort of upper cheek and maybe a little bit of the forehead. What would they have done there for those parts of exposed skin that they simply couldn't protect?

SPEAKER_00 4:50 Well, they would have used um tallow um to cover any skin that was was left untouched by the um cloths. In particular, the um muzzle itself was usually made by a minimum of twelve pieces of fabric that was slightly damp, and then they would be placed in a Hessian, kind of Hessian sack. Obviously, because you don't want the dampness to touch you as well as as anything else. But the the fact that they would be slightly damp would kind of help with the with the gases, and that would be tied around the head. Then obviously they'd do a a day's shift and they'd come out and they would need some form of oil then to remove the tallow and then with it any sort of powder or anything that they'd picked up during during the day, and then eventually then soap and water would have would have just finished the job then completely. But the muzzles themselves, they would take them home and they would be washed every day, you know, taken apart, every one taken off. If any were thought to be defective, they'd be replaced. And this was quite the I think quite the routine.

SPEAKER_01 5:51 And one thing that people were asking was the model of the bleach packer doesn't have the muzzle around his mouth, and you know, wondered how on earth that was protecting him from the gases. But you've got this brilliant um photo from 30 years ago when the bleach packer was sort of first installed, and the muzzle is much further around his mouth. So that clearly has sort of um drifted down with time, should we say. So maybe explain the process of why the muzzle was needed, because I think there was some confusion as to why you would have like why it would make any difference at all breathing through your mouth and out through your nose. But you he was breathing through the muzzle, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:29 Yes, that's right. You would have needed something over his face in order to uh have got that breath in. So the muzzle, it had a uh well, you can see by the the pictures that you he's trying to cover all his face as much as possible. And the the underneath of that would have been almost a little pouch, and he would have taken because you because you know what it's like yourself, you you can take a breath underneath of underneath fabric, can't you? You know, so it would almost be filtering your breath almost, I suppose, perhaps. Um so that's why um as I say that the the the model is is is quite old now and uh has become a bit worn, so perhaps it doesn't look as obvious, but yes, as much as his face would have been covered as possible.

SPEAKER_01 7:13 Yeah, so he's filtering out that those toxins and then breathing out of his nose. Um, and then that just creates this sort of the circular system that will keep him healthy in that environment. Uh, you know, I I did read one comment saying, uh, you know, knowing me, I would just keep forgetting to breathe the right way around.

SPEAKER_00 7:32 I bet they all did it, you know, a bit at at the time, but would soon learn not to.

SPEAKER_01 7:37 Yeah, because you you mentioned um that they would pass out, but you know, this could um this could leave lead to them being out of action for for multiple days, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:46 Uh it could be, yes. I mean, i I don't think it was on it was uncommon for people to be carried out, but I I I'm pretty much sure they would have gone back in later the day or or the next morning. I they they wouldn't have it wouldn't have stopped them too much, yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:00 Could it have caused any sort of internal internal chemical burns or lung issues later in life? Like were they sacrificing their health to do this work?

SPEAKER_00 8:09 I suppose it depends which um which version of it you read, really. Uh there are some very extreme there was uh a a book written or an article written at one time in 1890, and it's very, very florid and dramatic, you know, that these men were were dying from the inside and all the rest of it. But then it it was said that they'd got most he'd got most of his anecdotes from from the pub. So actually evidence um from um the medical profession and and indeed the alkali inspectors who who were there to be one would have assumed neutral, and um it was found it wasn't the case at all. So it wouldn't have been good for your health. It there's no question of that it wouldn't have been good. But actually, what you had a lot of at the time, um, and particularly around Waterloo Road in in Widness, which isn't far, uh which is is really a stone's throw from where we're talking, these factories are, there was certainly a lot of typhoid and um all these other diseases, obviously, which are uh thankfully a thing of the past. And in actual fact, the men that did that job weren't the ones getting the typhoid, so that was what was killing people. The typhoid germs, presumably, they thought could not have lived in those conditions. So where you've even got the flu epidemics and things like that that were killing so many people, actually they weren't the ones that were suffering. But but yes, they wouldn't have had great respiratory health and um indeed teeth. In a lot of cases, it didn't do the teeth any good. But then again at a time when nobody had good teeth, you know, it's it's you know, that you you can look at it in many ways. It's it wasn't great, that's why they got the big pay for it. But there were other factors, and a lot of that was to do with sanitation and hygiene, which was the very thing that they were making that prevented prevented that in the end anyway. You know, the people dying from that type of disease.

SPEAKER_01 10:06 Yeah, and and actually it sort of leads on to this um question we got a lot, which was about, you know, why the bleach packers didn't complain? Because obviously, you know, the very sort of obvious reason is is because it was a very well-paid job, and despite it being hard, it meant that they uh got good money for it. But was it primarily because they were happy, or did it mean potentially complaining meant immediate firing and starvation for their families, like that they they would be out of a job? You know, a lot of people sort of may uh seeing this as is quite a heavy critique of sort of industrial capitalism. Do you think it's clear from the historical record, given that they they didn't actually want to go on record complaining about their job, uh, why it is they didn't complain? And also, do you think they probably complained to each other at the pub?

unknown 10:54 Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:55 I think it was maybe um more that they it was very, very different times and we can't apply today's how we would feel today against something that was so long ago. But if you think about the fact that when they did that job, they knew what it was like. So there would it there would have been no point in complaining because the first thing somebody would have said to you, well, you know what it's you know what the job is, you know. So I think probably they did complain a little bit to the their um pals, but uh maybe also I do think there was a little bit of status involved. They would be seen as quite tough, quite, you know, quite important and and everything. And and when the the big money came with it, you know, these these people were coming from uh you know, you've you've got to think about the the Polish, the Lithuanian, and also the Irish that came to uh West Bank there, and you know, people were coming from Ireland because of the famine. So they would were coming to somewhere where they could could get work. And the fact that that work happened to be the m worst thing in the you know, if it if it sort of fed their families, you can quite see the attraction. They must have had the the resilience. There's there's plenty of of of times when you see endurance in in in anything really, but th they well, they found it from somewhere and they just they just took it as part of part of life.

SPEAKER_01 12:16 Yeah, it's a really good point you make about sort of ha trying to apply modern sensibilities to the past. Like it's not always as clear-cut as that because the circumstances of the past were so different. And actually, that brings me on to another question that got asked a lot, which this confusion on the um 10 pints story. Because you mentioned that the um the oral history that was recorded was was about a guy in the 1950s who would finish his shift and immediately down six pints at the pub. But obviously, I I you know I I've teed this up as a story about a 19th century job, not a 20th century job. Yeah. Um so some people were saying, hold on a minute, if it's a 19th century job, why was somebody having all this alcohol in in the 20th century? Um but actually it did last all the way up to the mid-20th century, didn't it?

SPEAKER_00 13:07 It did, yes. I mean, it's it's it's not too exaggerated to say it was probably a century's worth of of you know the same kind of production, although it was mechanized and improved. And then by the time you're getting into ICI, um, so post-1926, where ICI are now uh, you know, obviously a big organisation who has started to think about very much about safety and and welfare, um, you've basically got the same kind of job, but uh what you've also got is this in the oral history that we were talking about, um the chap uh Tommy Moss uh died in 1985 and he he was probably retired I think probably 30 years. So, I mean, we're talking about how it shortened people's life, and of course there's always the exception to the rule. If you think about him retiring in 1955, he would have been an there wasn't you know, he would have he would have worked as long as he possibly could. So you can imagine him personally in the 30s and 40s still doing that type of job that required that that sort of uh refreshment afterwards, if you like.

SPEAKER_01 14:13 Yeah, and and you mentioned that the model from the museum is it's a primitive from the 19th century, but you've set shed these wonderful pictures of uh workers, bleach packers from the 50s and and 60s, even, who look remarkably similar, despite the process having become more advanced and maybe safer over time. What they were wearing was quite similar, actually, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_00 14:37 It was very similar, yes. And and I suppose that just shows it's impossible to do the job, whether it's mechanized or not, without coming into contact with the product, and you still had to protect your skin.

SPEAKER_01 14:48 Many c commenters sort of on this point of the alcohol pointed out that you know alcohol actually dehydrates the body. Um so were were they drinking 10 pints for hydration? Was it a form of self-medication, like numbing, or or was the alcohol maybe weaker you know than we're imagining? Maybe it just wasn't quite as strong percentage-wise.

SPEAKER_00 15:10 No, I think it was stronger actually, if anything, um, at that time. Uh but but yes, the the it would definitely have been numbing. And in terms of yes, it would have the the would be more um dehydrated to have been drank all that. But if you think about um even on a you know, even if you were to have a beer on a hot day yourself, you know what's you know what you're doing. But that first quenching of your thirst has has its its rewards, doesn't it? You know, when when you first drink it. Because if you think about it would be the head and neck, wouldn't it? It would be that part of your body that would be need the moisture the most, wouldn't it, immediately?

SPEAKER_01 15:50 Yeah, it just so shows how gruelling the job was. Um you know, it it must have been really hard for them to to have wanted to consume so much alcohol. Um, and actually that probably wasn't doing much favours for their health either um in the long run. So sort of a mixture of things makes this it does make it quite a tough job. It's amazing that they did it.

SPEAKER_00 16:11 Yeah, and I think they thought as well that um that really the the alcohol was feeding them, if you like, because it was it was calories of a sort, even though it's not ideal. And uh the stories about obviously the men's teeth were so bad, that they might take their packed lunch with them during the day and then it might still be there when they went home because if they were having bread they couldn't eat the crusts, if it you know, so in a way, if you've perhaps a bit hungry, I guess, and you can't chew food properly, it's having something liquid is is just gonna feel like, well, you I've had something, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 16:48 So would these have been sort of eight-hour work days?

SPEAKER_00 16:52 They would have been longer shifts than that, um, ten and twelve hours, perhaps fourteen some of them, yes. Yeah, they had they had shift patterns in the end that were all different lengths depending on who you work for, etcetera. But yeah, they would have been they would have been long days, yes.

SPEAKER_01 17:05 And um uh some people have asked whether these factories that they were working for owned the houses that the workers lived in. And you know, uh back to this complaining point, the fact that they didn't complain to the alkali inspectors, is is that because they didn't want to lose their their homes?

SPEAKER_00 17:22 Well, I suppose they wouldn't want to lose their job because the home possibly did come um with the job, because those houses wouldn't exist had the factory owners not built them, because they they they couldn't have they couldn't employ people unless they'd got somewhere to live. So um they would have lots of boarding houses. Um and indeed that seems to be um the reason Spike Island got its name is because the boarding houses were called spikes, which I presume means that they were a little bit makeshift and they were supposed to be pointy on the top, and that's that's where it came from. So firstly, people would um and it's like any any factory, it w it was the same in Northwich as well. You've suddenly got an influx of people, you s you need to house them, and they will be they will be housed in something that's that's a bit more temporary. If they would have um looked like they were staying with the company for longer, they would perhaps get company housing which they would rent, and then I suppose if they didn't work there anymore, they would just move somewhere else. But we're talking about a time when if anyone's done family history and and they look at their family that's perhaps had eight or nine children or something, and then you look at those christening records, you see that they're in a different address more or less every time they've had a child or something like that. And that might be because they needed a bigger space because they have more children. That might be that they uh aspired to live in somewhere better, so wanted a bigger house, but also it might have been that they downsized to somewhere because their money was tight. So people were very used to moving from place to place and place, and no one owned their own houses at that time.

SPEAKER_01 18:57 Yeah, you kind of went where went where the work was, right?

SPEAKER_00 19:00 Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 19:01 And and I I think we sort of mustn't forget, you you mentioned this in in the interview, but Whitnes just wasn't really occupied to any great extent before the chemical industry sort of set upon it, right? It it wasn't a town with sort of burgeoning community already.

SPEAKER_00 19:18 No, it wasn't, definitely not, no. Which is one of the reasons it was chosen. There was just so much open space, uh farmland mostly. Um so you know, there would be trades, there was watchmakers and and um people who um did weaving to make sailcloth and stuff like that, but it w it was a very sort of rural little hamlet, really.

SPEAKER_01 19:42 Yeah, and and that's why you sort of said that um at first people said, Oh, just do it in Widness, you can't offend anyone there, because there really wasn't anyone there to offend. Yeah. This is sort of um like a follow-on i about the actual chemical industry that's uh a c a few people wanted to know like what the area around Widness is is like now, you know, beside the Galagoo heaps, which is this waste product that you mentioned got sort of basically left in the ground just to sort of sink beneath the earth and it still makes up a lot of the the ground there in Widness now. But what did this industry do to the local landscape and to the mercy? And are there any sort of no-go zones in Woodness today because of these chemicals?

SPEAKER_00 20:25 Nothing like that now, no. Uh in the early days, obviously, uh we spoke about the Galago, the chemical waste just needing to be dumped somewhere, they had to put it somewhere. And in actual fact, because it was all farmland and farmland is can be a bit undulating and and so forth. So the first thing they did was to fill any any gap and level off the area. And actually, if you if you if you come to where we are on West Bank, actually it is very flat, you know. So uh you can see maybe the th they would have perhaps been they've built up areas that perhaps weren't as high as as as they are now and and everything to to get immediately to start getting rid of of the chemical waste, and then obviously that that becomes a point where they then build on it. And that there are probably if you go down far enough, um some of the houses that are still there today may well be built on it, but obviously it's solid enough after all these years that it's obviously not a problem, otherwise they would have sunk. But then you ended up with all these areas that were chosen to just start to make these these piles of of you know which which are now hills, and um that you know they were they were known as the Widness Alps or the Le Blanc Alps because I suppose uh there was a point where it looked like snow. But uh yeah, until it were until it went very black and dirty, obviously.

SPEAKER_01 21:53 Well, Judith Wilde, thank you so much for coming back on and doing this deep dive on the life of the bleach packer. It's been wonderful having you back on the podcast. It's a pleasure. Thank you very much. You've been listening to what we did before. Please subscribe, it helps us out massively, and I will see you next time.